Record Label Scum

TTF - 4-13-2005 at 06:40 PM

I thought some of you hateful fucks might appreciate this article. What's the difference, though, between getting fucked by a big label or shitbags like Met and John Dudeck?

The Problem With Music
by Steve Albini

Whenever I talk to a band who are about to sign with a major label, I always end up thinking of them in a particular context. I imagine a trench, about four feet wide and five feet deep, maybe sixty yards long, filled with runny, decaying shit. I imagine these people, some of them good friends, some of them barely acquaintances, at one end of this trench. I also imagine a faceless industry lackey at the other end holding a fountain pen and a contract waiting to be signed. Nobody can see what's printed on the contract. It's too far away, and besides, the shit stench is making everybody's eyes water. The lackey shouts to everybody that the first one to swim the trench gets to sign the contract. Everybody dives in the trench and they struggle furiously to get to the other end. Two people arrive simultaneously and begin wrestling furiously, clawing each other and dunking each other under the shit. Eventually, one of them capitulates, and there's only one contestant left. He reaches for the pen, but the Lackey says "Actually, I think you need a little more development. Swim again, please. Backstroke". And he does of course.

Every major label involved in the hunt for new bands now has on staff a high-profile point man, an "A & R" rep who can present a comfortable face to any prospective band. The initials stand for "Artist and Repertoire." because historically, the A & R staff would select artists to record music that they had also selected, out of an available pool of each. This is still the case, though not openly. These guys are universally young [about the same age as the bands being wooed], and nowadays they always have some obvious underground rock credibility flag they can wave.

Lyle Preslar, former guitarist for Minor Threat, is one of them. Terry Tolkin, former NY independent booking agent and assistant manager at Touch and Go is one of them. Al Smith, former soundman at CBGB is one of them. Mike Gitter, former editor of XXX fanzine and contributor to Rip, Kerrang and other lowbrow rags is one of them. Many of the annoying turds who used to staff college radio stations are in their ranks as well. There are several reasons A & R scouts are always young. The explanation usually copped-to is that the scout will be "hip to the current musical "scene." A more important reason is that the bands will intuitively trust someone they think is a peer, and who speaks fondly of the same formative rock and roll experiences. The A & R person is the first person to make contact with the band, and as such is the first person to promise them the moon. Who better to promise them the moon than an idealistic young turk who expects to be calling the shots in a few years, and who has had no previous experience with a big record company. Hell, he's as naive as the band he's duping. When he tells them no one will interfere in their creative process, he probably even believes it. When he sits down with the band for the first time, over a plate of angel hair pasta, he can tell them with all sincerity that when they sign with company X, they're really signing with him and he's on their side. Remember that great gig I saw you at in '85? Didn't we have a blast. By now all rock bands are wise enough to be suspicious of music industry scum. There is a pervasive caricature in popular culture of a portly, middle aged ex-hipster talking a mile-a-minute, using outdated jargon and calling everybody "baby." After meeting "their" A & R guy, the band will say to themselves and everyone else, "He's not like a record company guy at all! He's like one of us." And they will be right. That's one of the reasons he was hired.

These A & R guys are not allowed to write contracts. What they do is present the band with a letter of intent, or "deal memo," which loosely states some terms, and affirms that the band will sign with the label once a contract has been agreed on. The spookiest thing about this harmless sounding little memo, is that it is, for all legal purposes, a binding document. That is, once the band signs it, they are under obligation to conclude a deal with the label. If the label presents them with a contract that the band don't want to sign, all the label has to do is wait. There are a hundred other bands willing to sign the exact same contract, so the label is in a position of strength. These letters never have any terms of expiration, so the band remain bound by the deal memo until a contract is signed, no matter how long that takes. The band cannot sign to another laborer or even put out its own material unless they are released from their agreement, which never happens. Make no mistake about it: once a band has signed a letter of intent, they will either eventually sign a contract that suits the label or they will be destroyed.

One of my favorite bands was held hostage for the better part of two years by a slick young "He's not like a label guy at all," A & R rep, on the basis of such a deal memo. He had failed to come through on any of his promises [something he did with similar effect to another well-known band], and so the band wanted out. Another label expressed interest, but when the A & R man was asked to release the band, he said he would need money or points, or possibly both, before he would consider it. The new label was afraid the price would be too dear, and they said no thanks. On the cusp of making their signature album, an excellent band, humiliated, broke up from the stress and the many months of inactivity. There's this band. They're pretty ordinary, but they're also pretty good, so they've attracted some attention. They're signed to a moderate-sized "independent" label owned by a distribution company, and they have another two albums owed to the label. They're a little ambitious. They'd like to get signed by a major label so they can have some security you know, get some good equipment, tour in a proper tour bus -- nothing fancy, just a little reward for all the hard work. To that end, they got a manager. He knows some of the label guys, and he can shop their next project to all the right people. He takes his cut, sure, but it's only 15%, and if he can get them signed then it's money well spent. Anyways, it doesn't cost them anything if it doesn't work. 15% of nothing isn't much! One day an A & R scout calls them, says he's 'been following them for a while now, and when their manager mentioned them to him, it just "clicked." Would they like to meet with him about the possibility of working out a deal with his label? Wow. Big Break time. They meet the guy, and y'know what -- he's not what they expected from a label guy. He's young and dresses pretty much like the band does. He knows all their favorite bands. He's like one of them. He tells them he wants to go to bat for them, to try to get them everything they want. He says anything is possible with the right attitude.

They conclude the evening by taking home a copy of a deal memo they wrote out and signed on the spot. The A & R guy was full of great ideas, even talked about using a name producer. Butch Vig is out of the question-he wants 100 g's and three points, but they can get Don Fleming for $30,000 plus three points. Even that's a little steep, so maybe they'll go with that guy who used to be in David Letterman's band. He only wants three points. Or they can have just anybody record it (like Warton Tiers, maybe-- cost you 5 or 7 grand] and have Andy Wallace remix it for 4 grand a track plus 2 points. It was a lot to think about. Well, they like this guy and they trust him. Besides, they already signed the deal memo. He must have been serious about wanting them to sign. They break the news to their current label, and the label manager says he wants them to succeed, so they have his blessing. He will need to be compensated, of course, for the remaining albums left on their contract, but he'll work it out with the label himself.

Sub Pop made millions from selling off Nirvana, and Twin Tone hasn't done bad either: 50 grand for the Babes and 60 grand for the Poster Children-- without having to sell a single additional record. It'll be something modest. The new label doesn't mind, so long as it's recoupable out of royalties. Well, they get the final contract, and it's not quite what they expected. They figure it's better to be safe than sorry and they turn it over to a lawyer--one who says he's experienced in entertainment law and he hammers out a few bugs. They're still not sure about it, but the lawyer says he's seen a lot of contracts, and theirs is pretty good. They'll be great royalty: 13% [less a 1O% packaging deduction]. Wasn't it Buffalo Tom that were only getting 12% less 10? Whatever. The old label only wants 50 grand, an no points. Hell, Sub Pop got 3 points when they let Nirvana go. They're signed for four years, with options on each year, for a total of over a million dollars! That's a lot of money in any man's English. The first year's advance alone is $250,000. Just think about it, a quarter million, just for being in a rock band! Their manager thinks it's a great deal, especially the large advance. Besides, he knows a publishing company that will take the band on if they get signed, and even give them an advance of 20 grand, so they'll be making that money too. The manager says publishing is pretty mysterious, and nobody really knows where all the money comes from, but the lawyer can look that contract over too. Hell, it's free money. Their booking agent is excited about the band signing to a major. He says they can maybe average $1,000 or $2,000 a night from now on. That's enough to justify a five week tour, and with tour support, they can use a proper crew, buy some good equipment and even get a tour bus! Buses are pretty expensive, but if you figure in the price of a hotel room for everybody In the band and crew, they're actually about the same cost. Some bands like Therapy? and Sloan and Stereolab use buses on their tours even when they're getting paid only a couple hundred bucks a night, and this tour should earn at least a grand or two every night. It'll be worth it. The band will be more comfortable and will play better.

The agent says a band on a major label can get a merchandising company to pay them an advance on T-shirt sales! ridiculous! There's a gold mine here! The lawyer Should look over the merchandising contract, just to be safe. They get drunk at the signing party. Polaroids are taken and everybody looks thrilled. The label picked them up in a limo. They decided to go with the producer who used to be in Letterman's band. He had these technicians come in and tune the drums for them and tweak their amps and guitars. He had a guy bring in a slew of expensive old "vintage" microphones. Boy, were they "warm." He even had a guy come in and check the phase of all the equipment in the control room! Boy, was he professional. He used a bunch of equipment on them and by the end of it, they all agreed that it sounded very "punchy," yet "warm." All that hard work paid off. With the help of a video, the album went like hotcakes! They sold a quarter million copies! Here is the math that will explain just how fucked they are: These figures are representative of amounts that appear in record contracts daily. There's no need to skew the figures to make the scenario look bad, since real-life examples more than abound. income is bold and underlined, expenses are not.

Advance: $ 250,000
Manager's cut: $ 37,500
Legal fees: $ 10,000
Recording Budget: $ 150,000
Producer's advance: $ 50,000
Studio fee: $ 52,500
Drum Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": $ 3,000
Recording tape: $ 8,000
Equipment rental: $ 5,000
Cartage and Transportation: $ 5,000
Lodgings while in studio: $ 10,000
Catering: $ 3,000
Mastering: $ 10,000
Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, misc. expenses: $ 2,000
Video budget: $ 30,000
Cameras: $ 8,000
Crew: $ 5,000
Processing and transfers: $ 3,000
Off-line: $ 2,000
On-line editing: $ 3,000
Catering: $ 1,000
Stage and construction: $ 3,000
Copies, couriers, transportation: $ 2,000
Director's fee: $ 3,000
Album Artwork: $ 5,000
Promotional photo shoot and duplication: $ 2,000
Band fund: $ 15,000
New fancy professional drum kit: $ 5,000
New fancy professional guitars [2]: $ 3,000
New fancy professional guitar amp rigs [2]: $ 4,000
New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $ 1,000
New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $ 1,000
Rehearsal space rental: $ 500
Big blowout party for their friends: $ 500
Tour expense [5 weeks]: $ 50,875
Bus: $ 25,000
Crew [3]: $ 7,500
Food and per diems: $ 7,875
Fuel: $ 3,000
Consumable supplies: $ 3,500
Wardrobe: $ 1,000
Promotion: $ 3,000
Tour gross income: $ 50,000
Agent's cut: $ 7,500
Manager's cut: $ 7,500
Merchandising advance: $ 20,000
Manager's cut: $ 3,000
Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
Publishing advance: $ 20,000
Manager's cut: $ 3,000
Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 =
$3,000,000
Gross retail revenue Royalty: [13% of 90% of retail]:
$ 351,000
Less advance: $ 250,000
Producer's points: [3% less $50,000 advance]:
$ 40,000
Promotional budget: $ 25,000
Recoupable buyout from previous label: $ 50,000
Net royalty: $ -14,000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Record company income:

Record wholesale price: $6.50 x 250,000 =
$1,625,000 gross income
Artist Royalties: $ 351,000
Deficit from royalties: $ 14,000
Manufacturing, packaging and distribution: @ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000
Gross profit: $ 7l0,000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game.

Record company: $ 710,000
Producer: $ 90,000
Manager: $ 51,000
Studio: $ 52,500
Previous label: $ 50,000
Agent: $ 7,500
Lawyer: $ 12,000
Band member net income each: $ 4,031.25

The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month. The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige. The next tour will be about the same, except the merchandising advance will have already been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't have earned any royalties from their T-shirts yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out how to count money like record company guys. Some of your friends are probably already this fucked.

Killthehumans - 4-13-2005 at 06:55 PM

i remeber this article was in Maximum rock and roll in like '97 or something ...only good article MRR ever put out

ENDERA.x - 4-13-2005 at 08:08 PM

insane. insane.

gavin - 4-13-2005 at 08:58 PM

met...oy vey

tireironsaint - 4-13-2005 at 11:14 PM

I've read that article a few times in a few different places and it never fails to make me feel sick, especially when I realize that our country is run in pretty much the same way....

So what's the story on Met? That's the guy from Too Damn Hype and Dare To Defy, right? I've never heard about issues with him, but I'm kinda removed from a lot of the scene gossip.....

BDx13 - 4-13-2005 at 11:24 PM

MET, KING OF THE WHITE PEOPLE!

newbreedbrian - 4-13-2005 at 11:25 PM

yea good stuff there. ive got that MRR. it was the major labels issue from 94. really good issue and a classic cover of someone with a gun in their mouth. that left a lasting impression on me

TTF - 4-14-2005 at 09:47 AM

To his credit, Met's biggest crime was incompetence (and bad taste). He always made sure he got paid first, though. For the Starkweather-Crossbearer album I believ we recieved one check for a little over $700. Now I'm no mathematician, and I'm no million selling artist, but fuck, I know that thing still sells a little bit to this day, and it was released over a decade ago. Record label people should be hunted like deer.

Dudeck is a different story and one that I won't get into. Lets just use this example. Starkweather-Into the Wire recording budget=$1,200. Payment for over 10,000 albums sold=$1,300 in MERCHANDISE. Next release: Overcast. Recording budget=$10,000. Where do you think he got the fucking money???

jonnynewbreed - 4-14-2005 at 11:02 AM

Getting payed for you're music is a funny thing. We've released records with labels in the past...payed for everything and we've been given this fucking story as to why there is no money for us.

Having said all that Thorp has given us everything they said they would and more. Now we aren't getting rich by any stretch, but when was the last a label actually followed through with what they said they would.

Thanks Thorp for bringing some fucking integrety back into this twisted business.

Fuck you, Fuck you, Fuck you...you're cool, i'm out!!

TTF - 4-14-2005 at 08:47 PM

Yeah my rant definitely wasn't directed at the label who's board I use and abuse. $10,000 to record an album is a ridiculous amount. We could record at least 2 complicated albums with that much money.

gavin - 4-14-2005 at 08:49 PM

what the fuck would one use the $10,000 for?
we took our time last time we went in and we spent all of almost $700
you better be JOURNEY spending that much bread

clevohardcore - 4-14-2005 at 09:55 PM

wow just wow.

Now I feel better for being in sucky bands and never making it.

TTF - 4-15-2005 at 11:04 AM

There's something to be said for being in sucky bands and never making it. If making it means having to sit across from jamie jasta and pretending that I like him then i'll take failure. If making it means polishing tony brummels knob so i can have relentless commercials of my band played on mediocre swedish metal, uh, i mean headbangers ball then i'll take failure. if making it means toning things down ,shortening songs, or making songs that sound like NIN (yeah that's a thinly veiled DEP dig) then i'll take failure. Keep on failing, clevohardcore, you'll be in good company.

newbreedbrian - 4-15-2005 at 12:58 PM

nicely said.

MyOwnWay - 4-15-2005 at 11:43 PM

About to become very unpopular....

I'm not saying that all labels are angels, but I blame different bands for this as well. Depending on the situations and scenarios bands are just as at fault. Labels are a business, they NEED to make money in order to keep putting shit out. If you dont read thru the contract, or not question different things, getting fucked is inevitable. I've known several bands who look at labels almost like a parent. Thinking Daddy label is gonna help them thru all there woes. Its a bullshit metality. If you want to do anything with music, you gotta push for it. All the time. If the label does most of the work, they are gonna keep most of the money.

Disclaimer: My responce is meant in a general way. It is not in responce to anyones paticular post or situation or opinion.

TTF - 4-16-2005 at 12:21 AM

The label rarely does most of the work. They don't sit in the shitty rehearsal room with 4 other smelly guys and learn the songs, they don't work in the studio to make things sound nice, and they don't drive around in a shitty van playing shows for retards for zero dollars.

The basic premise of the music industry goes like this-band writes songs, goes into studio, which the band pays for, the band goes on tour to promote the album, which the band pays for, the band gets adds in shiny magazines, which the band pays for, the band gets some new gear, which the band pays for, and on and on while the label takes a small risk by pressing cd's and doing a few ads all the while taking the bulk of the profits (stealing the bands money).

blackoutnyhc - 4-16-2005 at 04:54 AM

TTF, I didn't realize being in a band was such a horrible, inescapable chore. Sounds like your band experience was pretty joyless. Too bad. IMHO, when someone CHOSES to be in a BAND, it is their JOB to BE in that room and write songs, TO PLAY shows, and CREATE A FANBASE and STORY to build THEIR BAND. If the only motivation is a "career" then becoming an "artist" was the wrong personal choice for that person.

To say that labels take no risk is competely unfair. All of the money that comes out of the bands share (i.e. recoupable costs such as "RECORDING" and "TOUR SUPPORT") is money that the label is not sure they will make back. It's contingent upon the band ACTUALLY SELLING RECORDS. Let's not forget about expenses regarding rent, electricity, phone, people to actually pack the envelopes, do the design, manage web site, collect from distributors. Bands don't care becuase, it's not their money- it's a loan that they are never compelled to repay. But...the label has to PREPAY all of these expenses in the hope (not guarantee) that the band will sell enough. I've had quite a few bands break up shortly after an album release and I just have to eat it and smile.

I don't ask for a hug or a cookie when I lose or make a stupid decision (oh and I have) because that's MY job.

Also, bands love to bitch about labels, but god forbid they want to do some of the mundane office work that doing a label involves, or how difficult it is to get hundreds of individuals at distributors, magazines, pressing plants, designers, studios, mastering facilities to come together to even sell a few thousand records. It's all a Boris Karloff science experiment, all the time.

The problem with punk being so "popular" is that lots of people in a two bit band make demands like Axl Rose before they sell record one, or think that the world owes them something becuase they play guitar in a band that has 1500 myspace friends. My day does not involve doing lines of blow off Mariah Carey's ass and stumbling to my Learjet for a jaunt to the Hamptons for brunch with P.Diddy- and I'm sure Andy Thorp's doesn't either.

I'm not trying to be a douchebag but I agree with MyOwnWay.

newbreedbrian - 4-16-2005 at 10:03 AM

your comments are definately valid but theres a huge difference between an indie label who essentially started the label because they love music and a major label who essentially views music as a commodity, no different than selling cheez whiz or stereos. keep in mind the discussion here is on the latter. sinking 200 grand into a band is hardly putting their ass on the line. the people at those labels arent making fuck all and putting their jobs on the line to try and tour. they're not coming back from tour and scrambling to make their rent. and yes, you can end up in debt to a major label.

blackoutnyhc - 4-16-2005 at 11:01 AM

I agree 100% about the majors- you can get totally killed, or just plain ignored (as you will see when you watch the Sheer Terror DVD). You are correct in assuming the 56 year old fatcat with a 2 million dollar salary and marble office is not going to give one shit about any band who isn't meeting expectations.

Being on a major that has the money to develop the band and doesn't care is worse than an indie that can't afford to do what they want for you.

But my question is... when everyone appears to know this, why the rush to grab for the brass ring and try for the "major" deal- like it's the cure to all the problems when it clearly is not? THe problem is not the "dealer" offering the drug... the problem is with the bands buying into the hype someone is selling you.

I've encountered alot of bands who look at the major deal as the "endgame", and are under some grand delusion that it's a cruise after the contract is signed.... but to be successful you need to redouble your personal effort in making it work. You need to have a management and booking infrastructure in place that can have a good working relationship with the major. Only then do you stand a snowball's chance in hell.

TTF - 4-16-2005 at 11:03 AM

BlackoutNYHC, being in a band is about the only joy in my life. 15 years and I still drive 6 hours round trip to sit in that smelly room with the smelly guys. It can be fun, it can be creative, but it is work. Do you think a writer or a painter has a fucking ball sitting there hour after hour doing what they do? Now I get the point, you're a label guy, perhaps you're Bill Wilson (Blackout Records) and you can speak from your experience and I'll speak from mine.

One of my main gripes is that there is no legal recourse for auditing the records of the pressing plant that the label used to find out how many albums have been pressed. Not on a major, not on an indie. That allows record label guy to, in essence, make up a number with no possiblity of getting caught.

Let's assume you do do tons of hard work, have a great website, mp3's, etc (Like Thorp). Does that entitle you to the bulk of the gross profits? I know that you need to take the $$$ from your big sellers to help pay for the bands that didn't pan out, but in the days of internet promotion and digital technology, how much is that investment?

Since I'm more familiar with the metal world these days than the hardcore, I'd like to know why a band like Cannibal Corpse (Yuck) is almost the only band able to make aliving from playing music? Why do outwardly appearing succesful bands like Dillinger Escape Plan, who sell a shitload of records, have to either tour like dogs or work shit jobs in between tours? I think the answer is that most bands are left with the choice of either signing a bad contract or no contract at all.

It's good to hear the label side of things. It doesn't change my opinion, but it's good to hear both sides. Without labels their would still be music, with out music their would be ???

15 years and still waiting for a hug and a cookie, Todd Starkweather.

newbreedbrian - 4-16-2005 at 02:20 PM

people reach for that "brass ring" for a multitude of reasons. greed is one of them. much as people will go on tv and eat a buffalo penis and climb in a box full of rats for a chance at some cash, there will always be people chasing that major label deal. vanity is another, for whatever reason celebrity is important to a large percentage of the population. naivite is one of the biggers reasons. i dont think it's accurate to suggest that its like the drug user/drug dealer relationship. we know hard drugs are bad for us, there's noone being mislead there. ask a random person on the street how much a band would make for selling 200,000 records on a major label. what people dont realize is for every band that sells a million records on sony, there a many more signed (owned) by that label that will be a flop and end up in debt to said label and/or languishing on there with little to no support from the label. its funny, over the last couple of years being on thorp ive had a number of people say stuff like "wow, you guys must be making some serious cash". right. i work 6 days a week at a job i fucking loathe to pay my bills. we pay our jam space from show money and thats about it. that's not a diss on andy/thorp in the slightest. he's been amazing and done all he said and more. im talking about people's perceptions. as for todd's comment about pressing #'s im always curious about that stuff myself(again not with thorp, but definately with our last label). some of the largest indie labels have had horrible reputations for ripping off bands over the years (alternative tentacles, lookout, sst, subpop). and its definately not as simple as the whole 15 year old kid living with mommy calling every major label band a sellout. alot of my favorite records came out on major, "built to last" being a prime example. its just amazing that all the music industry leeches (lawyers, managers, etc) are the ones making the coin off a bands work. there a certainly alot of people that do see a major deal as the be all end all of playing music and will believe anything they're told. me? i choose to be a negative fuck and not trust people. now where's that crucifucks record........

jonnynewbreed - 4-17-2005 at 02:29 AM

Brian...that is the most well thought out, inteligent thing I have ever read from you. Chin Chin old chap, obviously some thought went into that statement and I commend you for it.

blackoutnyhc - 4-17-2005 at 10:17 AM

It's very hard to make a living in independent rock on the band side OR the label side on a consistent basis. In theory, the process should be about creating a win-win situation for both the band and label. However, It has been my experience that I've put the needs of a band above my own quite a few times, only to have them not reciprocate. Is it the labels job to put the bands first when clearly the bands will look for any opportunity to further their own career? (and have people accept it as the excuse.)

Also.. is it ok for a band to take a loan from the label to buy a van, and then fuck them on CD's that they agreed to pay for? And when the label recoups that money from royalties, becuase the band never paid, there's angry remarks said about them in fanzines or mesage boards- the fans accept it as gospel.

Bands are JUST as selfish as anyone at a record label (or any human) for that matter. And there is a willfull ignorance and dismissal of how things like distribution work or using hearsay from the rumormill as fact about how things work. There is a general assumption about being in a band. Most people's "inside view" of the music business comes through the media, MTV Cribs, and people believing the images conjured up by some video director to make things seem way more than they are.

The best thing for bands to do to avoid the pitfalls of their brethren is truly educate themselves on the process... become informed and understand what is going within their business and don't expet the world on a silver platter. But it's an effort to stay informed (and given the results of our last Presidential election- America in general has the awful habit of embracing HEARSAY over FACT. )

Like I said in my first post, most people in bands do not have the acumen nor the desire to do what it takes on the "business" side to make a band happen. Some people write great songs, or play bass like a champ, others give good spreadsheet. I'm better at the latter- so I put my skills to use in the scene where there would do the most good. Even if the majors go the way of the dinosaur, some type of marketing and distribution management will ALWAYS be needed by bands.

I look at the sum total of what I got/get from my affilation with punk and indie rock on many levels... I got to travel all over the world with my friends, feel like I've really been a part of something all of these years, and have had memories that alot of people wish they had. I'm going to embrace those far longer than soundscanning 30,000 albums.

TTF - 4-17-2005 at 10:52 AM

Hey blackoutnyc, thanks for not turning this thing into a corny little internet fight. When we started Starkweather we knew we had no chance at making a living as a band and we never wavered from that belief. I'm still not looking for a Cribs worthy house or an Escalade, I'd like to just break even.

Using the Albini article to boost my point was overkill and an overstatement but I still believe the general sentiment is correct. In many ways it's even more difficult to accept getting taken by people you considered friends especially when to me hardcore has always been more about ethics than music. I know of TooDamnHypes struggles with trying to get money from Dutch East distribution and I also know that when it was time to get paid, Met got paid first and was able to live marginally better than I was living at the time. I know that Edison Recordings (John Dudeck) sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 15,000 copies of our 'Into the Wire' ep and we recieved $1,200 to record and approximately $1,300 in merchandise. Let's assume he sold the ep wholesale for 4 bucks, which is an underestimation. After recouping his losses there had to be SOMETHING left of the $60,000 dollars, don't you think?

Now shame on us for doing business with friends, for not hiring a lawyer ($$$), for making the same mistake again and again, but this is fucking hardcore and things were SUPPOSED to be different. There was a time when I truly believed that and believed in the power of music. I guess we all grow up.

Here's a list of my expenses to keep doing Starkweather at the level we're at now (you know, the level where noone knows who we are): Practice space: $300/month, trip to Philly for practice: $60 round trip, miscellaneous equipment upkeep: $100/month. Not a huge amount but it still hurts.

At the end of the day the most important part of this whole thing is stated in your last paragraph. Will I remember getting paid nothing for 15 years of work or will I remember the amazing shows with our friends in Merauder, Confusion, All Out War, playing the Trocadero, the incredible Albany shows, the trip to Boston with Rennie and Michelle to see Poison Idea at the Rat (I think you were there!). Of course that stuff is the most important but breaking even would be a huge victory. Now how about a hug.

blackoutnyhc - 4-17-2005 at 11:23 AM

Nah, I don't fight on these things, I just wanted to put in my two cents on the record label side and let everyone know this is not an entirely one-sided discourse.

Yes, if you sold 15,000 copies of a record an only got $2500 in advances there's something weird about that. And if 1/10th of the people who work at majors had the same ideals as we both wrote in our last paragraphs, the major game would be better... but we gotta play the hand we're dealt and it's filled with powerhungry, inept, and emotionally frail individuals on all sides of the aisle.

I guess the best thing to come from this back and forth as a "lesson" to aspiring band is even though this is "hardcore", to:
a) get it in writing
b) truly understand what you are agreeing to.

Consider yourself hugged in a sportsmanlike fashion.

newbreedbrian - 4-17-2005 at 01:24 PM

im not sure what it is about this board that attracts people who can actually have a debate instead of resorting to childish name calling and shit. i sure am happy it is the way it is though. i think in the end it's not really about labels vs bands. it's more a question of sociology, some people treat each other with respect and some don't. i still maintain that major labels are set up in such a way so the leeches are the ones who almost always come out on top. i would draw a parallel between what was described in the grapes of wrath and how this works. when there were so many people looking for work, the owners payed them next to nothing because they knew someone else would take the job to feed their family. same deal here, you don't want to sign a shitty contract? what's wrong with you, im offering you the world. ah well, the next shitty band in line that sounds exactly the same will be happy to sign. anways, im enjoying the discussion boys

jonnynewbreed - 4-17-2005 at 05:37 PM

Major labels and corperations in general are set up so that the bottom line is the bottem line. They have a board, and those people on the board are relying on this corperate venture to pay the bills so the band on the lowest end of the corperate scale gets zero consideration. It is too bad when you see people with a DIY ethic in the beginning take on corperate ideals later on in their business's life due to $$$.

There was a great canadian film called "The Corperation" that you should check out. It likens corperate America and Canada to phychopathic behaviours. Well worth the rental fee to see this one.

And this is definitly the most intellegant thing i've seen on the internet in a long time...except for my horrible spelling.

MyOwnWay - 4-18-2005 at 11:33 AM

There are so many bands out there trying to become more popular. They are doing all the "right things". They have their music and business side of things tight. They dont need labels for advertising, distribution (gets taken care of thru internet orders and constant cross country shows), pressing or studio are all comped by themselves or from previous sales including merch. Its these bands that go to labels and get fucked. Bands like this dont need a label, they can do their own thing. Another type of band that gets fucked is the ones who again, think daddy label will solve all of their problems. Its not like ti was back in the "olden" days. The shady shit from record companies have been exposed time and time again. The basic ins and the outs. So common sence can play a part with this, if the band is truly in to the music. They should be just as concerned about the "deal" they are getting as they are about writing a good song.

I know a lot of you are in to music and even some of you are in bands currently. I'm not saying anyones deserves to get dicked, but I am saying that I no longer completely blame labels (as I once did) for the shit that bands neglect to take seriousley. I think if a shitty deal is signed, its the fault of the band and the label. The label for drawing up somerthing so shitty thats obviousley a dick move. And the band for not taking more responsibility overseeing/presigning their contract.

TTF - 4-18-2005 at 11:53 AM

Even if you sign a good contract how do you afford a lawyer to help assure that the contract is enforced if you aren't making any money as a band? How do you argue against a label telling you that you only sold 100 copies of your album when you aren't allowed by law to subpoena pressing plant records? I would say that for the most part the shortcomings of record labels are from inexperience, but there are also enough crooks out there to sour me.

Many bands don't do their homework and end up in horrid 7 album deals making pennies on the dollar for their sales. This blows but buyer beware; but for a band the size of Mastodon or Dillinger to have to struggle is criminal.

MyOwnWay - 4-18-2005 at 05:42 PM

TTF: T

ruth its happened where the label is that inexperienced the band and/or label get dicked and noone come out on top. The worst thing I know has happened is, I think it was mentioned in the ariticle not sure... But when labels manuever a contract so that the label own the band name rights. So the band is fucked and could never leave. Or the labels that have been "buying out the compeition" where they sign a band and then shelf them, so noone else picks them up. To anyone that doesnt know this, trust me it has happened and is starting happen more frequently.

TTF - 4-18-2005 at 07:13 PM

When you sign a typical contract the label owns your name anyway. Whether you create music with that band or any other they own the rights. Not so with your average 'indie' contract I guess but that's how the big guys get you. Our band history has shown us that even the inexperienced labels get paid long before the band ever does, and not just recoupable losses like studio time and ads. I've also heard of some majors buying up a band just to keep them from the cempetition, with no plans of ever releasing it. Fact or fiction, I'm not sure.

Fat C GAMC - 4-19-2005 at 02:01 AM

I know and have known for a while that it is almost impossible to make a living on independant music and i dont think there are many bands that would expect total financial security from playing shows to 50-300 kids a night, but i dont think that those bands should be expected to lose their asses so they can sell the 900 records that their label is holding. I find it ridiculous that any label would want to put their bands in that position. Its pretty common for a label to "take a chance" on a younger band by pressing 1000 and giving them %10 and paying for mastering and artwork. So in effect the label makes a $2500 investment in a band (pressing and all) and keeps 900 CDs they can wholesale from 6.50 to 8.50 per unit or sell in their webstore for 10 or 12. The band on the other hand gets 100 Cds to sell at 10 bucks a piece on the road. Which wont even recoup their recording costs. Plus they make other merch for tour and invest in van that they will likely be spending nearly 600 bucks a month on in upkeep and notes on the road. While the label sits back and reaps the benefits of their hardwork and financial loss. The label then turns around and sells them their CDs back at a "fair price" like 50 cents below wholesale . A real fair price the price per unit the label paid in , about 2.50 a CD. So the label is making money of the band that is pushing their product and taking the real risks. Sketch. A bands only hope for any sort of financial security (when the band breaksdown we have a way home)on the road if their merchandise and at $10 a shirt you cant afford a car or a apartment at home. That just allows you to survive.
There are a hundred Tony Brummels in independent music that prey on bands that are hungry, this isnt at all a major label only problem. A label only has to move about %35 to %40 percent of a pressing to break even, and thats on a small pressing, shit gets much cheaper as the quanities get larger so I dont buy a label saying they incur the bulk of the risk, because their chances of breaking even or profitting are much greater than the band. As far as ads are concerned they're a joke. Lets say a label says they are going to put 2000 dollars into advertising your record and thats why they are keeping so many records because they are putting that much more money into your CD. In actuallity they put a 1"x1" picture of your CD on a full page ad for their marquee band that cost $1000 and they think they're halfway done.
I dont think the blame lies solely on the label because it is a business and they cant be expected t operate without the possibility of profit. A lot of the blame lies with bands that arent business savy or that might just be to eager to release their music. No label will ever get a signature from me on a 10 or 20 percent deal unless they throw in a few good tours and a van allowance.

Jason the Magnificent - 4-19-2005 at 01:11 PM

Not all bands are innocent either, I have been pretty lucky thus far...but pestering a HC label for tour support/van allowance when you're selling 2 or 3 cd's a week is not necessarily an investment theyre going to chase after.
Too many people in hardcore are worried about money. In the 5 or so years I have been doing my label I have never once even came close to breaking even on a release till the Cheech and Neglect cd's...when I pump roughly $200 a month into ads/promo stuff and bring back in around $200 a month...you do the math. Wheres the recoup on the pressing/studio time/artwork...
In the end all a label can do is try be fair to the bands it deals with and hope for the best. There are always going to be labels ripping bands off and there are always going to be bands expecting more out of some kid busting his ass in his spare time for no thanks and no money in return.
Its takes a lot of time and effort to promote/push bands and to be honest, with the amount of money coming in, very few bands should be complaining about anything. When it takes 4 years to sell out a pressing of 1000 cds...whats the solution, sending the band $7.50 royalty checks every month?

Discipline - 4-19-2005 at 03:44 PM

Having never been in a band I won't claim to know how things work. But I have a question for Starkweather and The Newbreed. Do you guys deal with the contracts and deals on your own, or do you have a lawyer or somebody do that for you? Just curious.

For the New Breed, I just bought one of your albums from the store today. Make sure you get paid.

TTF - 4-19-2005 at 06:30 PM

As forStarkweather, we've used a lawyer on the new one and the last thing we did. The problem is that it doesn't really matter. Sure, you will Sign a better contract but enforcing it is where all of the problems start. Most bands of our size don't have the money to go after a label, even a crumb like John Dudeck. If there's enough money involved a lawyer may take the case with no $$$ up front, but for the type of money we're looking it, it's not worth an attorneys time or effort because it's a labor intensive process and there are much easier ways for them to make dough. Our lawyer did send Dudeck a threatening letter at one point years ago, but nothing came of it. It's a war of attrition and we have always been the one to buckle first. It's too difficult to live both in the past and the present and we'd rather look forward. If we get taken on this deal with Second Nature, you can bet that we will not tuck our tails between our legs (yes, we have tails) and walk away.

newbreedbrian - 4-19-2005 at 11:08 PM

getting lawyers to go over everything would be well beyond our means, we've done everything ourselves. the deal for our first 7" was 100% verbal with someone we completely trusted. in an ideal world they would all be like that. i really hate the "business" side of things

blackoutnyhc - 4-20-2005 at 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason the Magnificent
Not all bands are innocent either, I have been pretty lucky thus far...but pestering a HC label for tour support/van allowance when you're selling 2 or 3 cd's a week is not necessarily an investment theyre going to chase after.
Too many people in hardcore are worried about money. In the 5 or so years I have been doing my label I have never once even came close to breaking even on a release till the Cheech and Neglect cd's...when I pump roughly $200 a month into ads/promo stuff and bring back in around $200 a month...you do the math. Wheres the recoup on the pressing/studio time/artwork...
In the end all a label can do is try be fair to the bands it deals with and hope for the best. There are always going to be labels ripping bands off and there are always going to be bands expecting more out of some kid busting his ass in his spare time for no thanks and no money in return.
Its takes a lot of time and effort to promote/push bands and to be honest, with the amount of money coming in, very few bands should be complaining about anything. When it takes 4 years to sell out a pressing of 1000 cds...whats the solution, sending the band $7.50 royalty checks every month?

Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. Artists tend to forget that it's not what you press, it's what you sell- and how fast. Investing a few grand when it takes 4 years to (possibly) make it back will not be doing an IPO anytime soon. So most of us who have been in this game long enough do it more for love than money. But in reality we're all winos fighting over the last sip of Thunderbird - in the face of major labeldom and the Wal-Martinization of America, even Epitaph, the 800lb gorilla of punk indies, is a minor player.

with the proliferation of digital technology enabling everyone to be a band or label at a lower cost (and reducing the barriers to entry into music) the supply of "content" is way higher than it used to be.

There were only a handfull of labels doing this In the early days of Blackout! At that time, I could sell a very signficiant amount of records from ads in Flipside, Suburban Voice, MRR, and a postcard mailing to a few hundred kids. At this point, labels need to spend 20x that in full color REVOLVER or AP ads just to sell 1/4 of the records. The kids who buy records have an increased need to be PUSHED, SOLD and MARKETED to. It's a rough game on all sides.

Fat C GAMC - 4-20-2005 at 03:01 AM

Quote:

thats brings me to the point that labels should be responsible with who they invest in. You cant give every band tour support and there is no reason to offer to support to a band of weekend warriors, also you cant bitch about your lack of return if you decide to work with a band that plays to the same 500 kids a couple times a month.Hype in one area doesnt mean that hype will follow. Those are the bands that should take the 10% or take their own risk and release their own shit. I was reffering to touring bands, bands that will work as hard and probably a lot harder than the label to push the product. As for the you mentioning recording costs, there are only a handful of labels that cover recording for their bands, hell victory doesnt even cover recording for some of thier bands, eulogy and hand of hope either(but they do offer tour support).

GabeTexasGAMC - 4-20-2005 at 03:52 AM

thats why im glad i will never have to deal with ay of thi shit.
scumbags band that no one will want to put shit out for because were lazy as fuck.
you put it out and well keep making it. If someone gav us moeny to record wedlowing it beer and crap. and spend a little on recording.
whatever.\its hardcore, who the fuck cares what the fuck so and so spends on a band.
if we were in it for the money wed be playing country or ossomething.

blackoutnyhc - 4-20-2005 at 12:10 PM

My personal goal would be to build a real life for myself and for my bands out of this. It's happened a few months here and there, but not enough on a consistent basis where I didn't at certain times need another source of income to cover my "habit" of putting out records.

I don't want weekend warriors for Blackout! primarily becuase I never have been one myself. When some 21 year old explains that he's "a grown up now and needs to make sure his bills are paid before he tours" I want to puke and slap him. If you want security pack up your guitar, get your ink zapped off, and join the rat race. (Which is not really as secure as you think anyway.) Everyone is so concerned about the money and forgets about what else this whole thing brings to our lives but like I said in my previous post... we're all paupers grasping at pennies.

Maybe I'm just addicted to the chaos of it all and need to speak to a therapist.

Todd - 4-20-2005 at 05:32 PM

"I don't want weekend warriors for Blackout! primarily becuase I never have been one myself. When some 21 year old explains that he's "a grown up now and needs to make sure his bills are paid before he tours" I want to puke and slap him. If you want security pack up your guitar, get your ink zapped off, and join the rat race. (Which is not really as secure as you think anyway.) Everyone is so concerned about the money and forgets about what else this whole thing brings to our lives but like I said in my previous post... we're all paupers grasping at pennies."

It sounds like I better sell my guitars. My only problem is that so far the rat race doesn't want me. I think it takes a certain amount of common sense and a sense of self preseration to not drive around the US for 75 bucks a night. I also dislike most people so much that the idea of going out and having to talk to retards every night, all the while wanting to kill them, would be a fate worse than death.

Speaking of the 'rat race', I've met way more people that blew me away in the field of medicine than I have in 25 years of being involved in hardcore. There are very few Darby Crash's, Vic Bondi's, and Paul Bearer's in this little world. I love the rat race if the rat race means getting the opportunity to work in an ER in the South Bronx or treat kids in Pediatrics and I didn't get to this point by being privileged, I got here by sinking into $100,000 in debt and working my balls off.

Being able to play in Starkweather is the same kind of privilege as practicing medicine and I don't think my life would be worth living if I had to pick between the two.

True til payday, Todd.

blackoutnyhc - 4-20-2005 at 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Todd
"I don't want weekend warriors for Blackout! primarily becuase I never have been one myself. When some 21 year old explains that he's "a grown up now and needs to make sure his bills are paid before he tours" I want to puke and slap him. If you want security pack up your guitar, get your ink zapped off, and join the rat race. (Which is not really as secure as you think anyway.) Everyone is so concerned about the money and forgets about what else this whole thing brings to our lives but like I said in my previous post... we're all paupers grasping at pennies."

It sounds like I better sell my guitars. My only problem is that so far the rat race doesn't want me. I think it takes a certain amount of common sense and a sense of self preseration to not drive around the US for 75 bucks a night. I also dislike most people so much that the idea of going out and having to talk to retards every night, all the while wanting to kill them, would be a fate worse than death.

Speaking of the 'rat race', I've met way more people that blew me away in the field of medicine than I have in 25 years of being involved in hardcore. There are very few Darby Crash's, Vic Bondi's, and Paul Bearer's in this little world. I love the rat race if the rat race means getting the opportunity to work in an ER in the South Bronx or treat kids in Pediatrics and I didn't get to this point by being privileged, I got here by sinking into $100,000 in debt and working my balls off.

Being able to play in Starkweather is the same kind of privilege as practicing medicine and I don't think my life would be worth living if I had to pick between the two.

True til payday, Todd.

My diatribe is talking about career-ist bands, who make incredible financial demands, want lightning in bottle and have delusions they will be the next ______________ becuase they played shows with them. When I talk to a band I tell them the following: We're in what amounts to a three legged, race. We're tied to each other. If you want to put out a cool record and do regional shows.. don't expect to be on the cover of AP anytime soon. If you WANT that, and want ME to support it.. then you need to step up, and touring until your ass bleeds is the first step. Believe me, I've done more than my share of friendship releases for bands that barely played out of their practice space.

I actually think we're in agreement. You don't view HC as just about the money, neither do I. Your ability to have a career and life outside it brings a purity to it. (It also doesn't mean you shouldn't be paid for the 15,000 ep's you sold).

Due to a partnership with a total and complete asshole, I almost packed it in this year. I had to tough it out, do some legal wrangling, and luckily I came out on top. Blackout! is a part of me, just like your bands are a part of you. Thinking that I had to pack it in becuase of business made me sick. But again that's because it's more than the chance to "meet chicks", "get rich" and "be on MTV" for us. Like the Bondis, Bearers, and Crash's of the world- we're lifers in this particular scene in spite of it's often childish shortcomings.

Todd - 4-20-2005 at 07:31 PM

Right on, man. Great post. Business will never be th reason we stop plaing either, and apparently neither will the fact that we are embarrassingly old. 15 years in Starkweather and not one girl has ever come up to me after a show! It probably didn't help that my girlfriend/wife played bass for more than 10 of those 15.

We expect very little from a label these days; a couple bucks to record (although for the new album we've paid the bulk since we went over), a couple mp3's, a couple ads, and if you make some $$$, throw a little our way. We've been promoting ourselves for so long that until recently we wrote our own bios, one sheets, made our own ads, created the artwork for merch and got the shirts made, and paid for our rental van out of our own pockets. To be honest with you I'd continue doing that because I HAVE to play.

I guess I have a really hard time understanding 'careerist' bands. That thinking is so foreign to me that I just can't wrap my head around it. I've known bands like that, played in bands with people like that, but I just don't understand. That relentless hold I have on DIY and the purity of this music is the only 'hardcore' thing I can lay claim to anymore.

I'm glad you decided not to pack it in. Todd.