Hardcore: Stick the fork in it.

Jason the Magnificent - 3-22-2007 at 12:59 PM

This was kind of inspired by the First Blood thread, but not directed at them so I made its own topic...although I know we've discussed things of this ilk before.

Anyone notice how all these bands write "good" formulaic hardcore but theres absolutely nothing memorable at all about it?

I don't have some set opinion of how HC should sound, I like anything from Black Flag to Bulldoze, but I can't think of more than a handfull of bands in hardcore in the past 5 years...hell past 10 maybe even that don't sound like theyre just going through the motions.

The genre has really become a parody of itself, a paint by numbers retro movement that in all honesty really isn't any more relevant than your local karaoke 80's night.

...and thats my deep thought for the day.

stateofdisgrace - 3-22-2007 at 01:21 PM

I don't know if I'd go that far. There are some good bands out there making it memorable for others. I'd say the East Coast is dying. I mean, the Superbowl is a prime example. We have to rehash bands and get reunions going just get folks to pay attention. The new breed of young kids look at all this metaled up stuff and call it "hardcore."
No one pays attention to the roots of the music......

XHonusWagnerX - 3-22-2007 at 02:04 PM

I agree... Actually I agree so much that one of the band ideas I had not that long ago was to have a band that played all covers of classic hardcore/punk songs. Bass, Guitar & Drums, but no singer. There would be some backing vocal mics and a lead vocal mic on the stage and it would be all based on crowd participation.

The name of the band would be....... HARD KORAOKE (Hard Kore-E-O-Key)

morgan - 3-22-2007 at 02:06 PM

I'm still holding out for the day hardcore is no longer the "in" thing and the mainstream forgets about it. Once that happens then its possible you might see some good new emerge that are worth paying attention to.

JawnDiablo - 3-22-2007 at 02:08 PM

they used to have hip hop karaokee at silk city called "so you wanna be a rapper?"
i think the khyber should have hardcore punk karaokee so i can throw bottles at people.....

JawnDiablo - 3-22-2007 at 02:09 PM

oh they're philly bars for you non PA dudes

stateofdisgrace - 3-22-2007 at 02:11 PM

I always thought STATE OF DISGRACE was holding on to the roots of the music. We kept it fast, energetic with good sing alongs, circle pit stuff. Most shows we played, we were odd men out. I remember we drove up to Albany and some kids were yelling as we played shit like: "Where's the f*&ing breakdown?" or "make us hit each other". Some kid kept coming up to grab the mic and I thought he knew the words, but all he'd do was growl into the mic and then stick his middle finger up to me. I really wanted to smack him.
I always tried to get people to start circle pits or I'd tell people the chorus before we played a song. Some kids got it, most just wanted the chugga chugga signal.....depressing really.....

JawnDiablo - 3-22-2007 at 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stateofdisgrace
I always thought STATE OF DISGRACE was holding on to the roots of the music. We kept it fast, energetic with good sing alongs, circle pit stuff. Most shows we played, we were odd men out. I remember we drove up to Albany and some kids were yelling as we played shit like: "Where's the f*&ing breakdown?" or "make us hit each other". Some kid kept coming up to grab the mic and I thought he knew the words, but all he'd do was growl into the mic and then stick his middle finger up to me. I really wanted to smack him.
I always tried to get people to start circle pits or I'd tell people the chorus before we played a song. Some kids got it, most just wanted the chugga chugga signal.....depressing really.....

u shoulda slugged him....

Muttley - 3-22-2007 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Too bad they never did that shit when I was in the band... actually it makes sense why they never did.

I don't think it's just hardcore music, I was actually having this exact convo about popular music and just music in general. 20+ years later people still listen to and can sing along to Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Aerosmith, Iron Maiden, Public Enemy, NWA... I don't think any music coming out right now has anywhere near that staying power. Can you think of anything coming out right now that people will still listen to and remember in 20 years? Metal, rock, hip hop, nothing coming out right now has those qualities.

JawnDiablo - 3-22-2007 at 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muttley

Quote:

I also said something like this in a recent conversation .
So true.

gavin - 3-22-2007 at 03:00 PM

i like country, reggae, and morrissey
"hardcore" is for fagzzz

CR83 - 3-22-2007 at 03:21 PM

I am so narrow minded when it comes to new shit. I am also lazy and need to be spoon fed new shit from people. I don't have time to devote like I used to. I need to hear state of disgrace because he is on this board is a good contributor.

What ruined it for me was downloading. It was so easy that I DL'd shit, listened a few times and that was it, then go get more. I was in such a "consumption" mode that it lost value. Also, I'm not a kid anymore and I am still listening to bands I used to listen to 20 years ago. I have figured out I do that because it reminds me of simpler times.

What I look for now is music that actually gets me to physically move. That is how I measure it now. It needs to have feeling.

Is HC dead? I don't think so but we do need something new and different to freshen up the water. The past is said and done. Let's not forget it but lets evolve.

I have no idea if this even makes sense.

gavin - 3-22-2007 at 03:48 PM

i like real hardcore punk bands
the shit thats called hardcore is metal which is fine but it aint my thing at all
when hardcore stopped being punk, thats when i lost all interest

xcadmusx - 3-22-2007 at 03:54 PM

I'm right there with you on the stagnant scene that we have to deal with right now... The biggest problem is that it IS a popular trend (which is fucked up on sooooo many levels), so the kids that are into it are pretty much the same kids that are sporting whatever clothes are cool at the moment and talk shit on anyone who doesn't meet the fashion code. The hardcore scene is infested with these idiots. So, because they are all a bunch of conformists, they all demand that the music sound the same and that they have their breakdowns to show off how tough they are and shit. So, instead of playing football, these jocks play hardcore. It's all about promoting their own image and not about a heartfelt brother and sisterhood anymore. It's very hard to have a real sense of an underground scene when the type of people us older folks were rebelling against are now the largest number at the shows. It's a very shitty atmosphere these days... However, I hold onto the knowledge that this will stop being "cool" and these posers will move onto disco, or whatever the fuck is cool in a year or two.

This is why Back To Back, much like State Of Disgrace, gets booked on a shitload of bands where we are the "sore thumb" of the lineup. It's VERY rare that we play to a crowd that really understands what we are about and it's even more rare to play in a lineup with at least one other "real" hardcore band and not all metal or metal-core bands... On a positive note: we did play a show recently with a ton of these tough-guy jock-core bands with their crowd. When we were done, we got flooded by these same kids who kept telling us that we were a breath of fresh air and that they were so happy to see a band not falling into the same old shit they've had forced down their throats. So, I'd say that there are a lot of kids getting tired of the crap and are ready for something real. All we, as a scene (especially those of us with some wrinkles and grey hair), have to do is set the example and stick to our guns and not play up to the trendy bullshit....

MyOwnWay - 3-22-2007 at 04:36 PM

Gotta say that i dont think a whole lot has changed overall. Metal infested Hardcore back in the days of Integrity, Ringworm and Snapcase. Hardcore is definitely good right now. Theres so many good bands I havnt been this into it since in the mid nineties.

The only problem is that we are saturated by this wave of "metalcore". Its all you hear about. But the vibe is still right. Granted, not having as many venues is definitely not helping things, especially in NYC. Which to me was the hot spot for Hardcore.

But the true feelings are still out there. Bands that actually enjoy Hardcore and got into for the same reasons all of us did. I have a great feeling about Hardcore right now. Its one of the biggest reasons why I became so inspired to start Awake/Strong. There was great music that wasnt being heard. Hardcore is alive and well fellas. Believe that.

Muttley - 3-22-2007 at 04:41 PM

I started to edit my other post and then got caught up with shit here at work so I never finished....

In my opinion, all of this is why the music industry in general is really hurting... the lack of inspiration and creativity AND the fact that all radio (and MTV) is payola just makes this one of the worst times ever for music as a whole.

Discipline - 3-22-2007 at 04:51 PM

The book of hardcore was officially closed when Sheer Terror played its final shows.

I agree with Jason that most bands are all about a formula these days. I remember starting a thread a little while back about how everybody sounds the same these days.Back in the day most of the bands sounded different. If a song came on you instantly knew who it was, Black Flag, Bad Brains, Dead Kennedys, Negative Approach, The Meatmen, Agnostic Front, etc. All the bands tried to have their own sound. When the "youth crew" thing started I think that's when bands really started trying to sound the same. There were so many bands trying to sound just like YOT, Gorilla Biscuits, etc.

I didn't mind when a bit of metal was added into hardcore because bands like the Cro-Mags and Crumbsuckers played hardcore with a bit of metal influence. Now it's a lot of bands playing badly written metal with a couple of breakdowns and adding cookie monster vocals and calling it hardcore. It's not about the music or the scene anymore, it's about who has the most colour vinyl and showing off for cameras so you can post videos of you and your friends "hardcore dancing." When the fuck did people start calling it "hardcore dancing?" What happened to slam dancing, or evening moshing?

I have actually made it my goal in life that on those rare occasions I go to a show I'm going to kick the shit out of anybody that jumps on stage to grab the mic and scream "BREAKDOWN!!!" I saw that happen when some shitty band was opening for AF, and I've seen in clips online. That really pisses me off. All that these little fucks care about is daning for their friends to try and look cool. Don't even get me started on the faggy 2-man dance routines I've seen some idiots get into.

Kids ask why all the older fans bitch about hardcore today, it's because it has turned into a faggy little trend of the variety that the original bands were against. Instead of being an outcast and getting beat up for being a punk it's become the cool thing to be. The straight edge trend really pisses me off too. I've met and known some really cool people who are sXe, including some on this board, and they usually choose to be edge for personal reasons that are logical. The idea that people choose to be "edge" because it's the cool thing to do pisses me off to no end because it's not the point. It's supposed to be a personal choice made to better oneself, not because all the "cool" bands are sXe this week and have cool merch.

Last part of my rant, I always amused by some of the kids at shows I go to. They see me and I see their eyes go wide and they start whispering to each other, and it's always the same thing, "holy shit a skinhead!!! What should we do." I hate to break it to these little fucks straight from the latest Warped tour, but without skinheads punk/hardcore/oi/etc. wouldn't be what it is today.

Jason the Magnificent - 3-22-2007 at 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muttley
I started to edit my other post and then got caught up with shit here at work so I never finished....

In my opinion, all of this is why the music industry in general is really hurting... the lack of inspiration and creativity AND the fact that all radio (and MTV) is payola just makes this one of the worst times ever for music as a whole.

I agree. My statements about HC could EASILY go for any genre.

upyerbum - 3-22-2007 at 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xcadmusx
All we, as a scene (especially those of us with some wrinkles and grey hair), have to do is set the example and stick to our guns and not play up to the trendy bullshit....

Exactamundo.

And really, nothing has changed, there's just more trendy, poser wankers than there used to be, but there's also more kids that are "down" than there used to be.

gavin - 3-22-2007 at 05:33 PM

i also like alot of bad 80s pop music
id rather listen to the gogos or the motels then all these new hardcore bands
boooring

Jason the Magnificent - 3-22-2007 at 05:34 PM

I'm really not even talking about the mallcore kids. That stuff has nothing to do with HC really IMO.

It's the kids that are "down" who are writing songs just as boring as the kids that aren't as the problem. Just because some kid has some ethereal understanding of his roots in the scene as a whole does not give him a free pass to regurgitate Killing Time riffs and think they're being different.

Christ I'm a grumpy old man.

gavin - 3-22-2007 at 05:39 PM

those mall kids are like on another planet then i am
i have no idea what they are about at all
i mean, more power to them
i am too old and whatnot to even give them a second thought
but i know enough to know that they have nothing to do with anything i am or ever was about

JawnDiablo - 3-22-2007 at 06:38 PM

I enjoy Madonna's first few records way more than the latest Hatebreed wanna bes
Madonna is fuckin good anyway. i don't care what people say.

Siczine.com - 3-22-2007 at 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by upyerbum

Quote:

Exactamundo.

And really, nothing has changed, there's just more trendy, poser wankers than there used to be, but there's also more kids that are "down" than there used to be.

Exactamundo! haha that makes me think of Joe Crow every time.

And yes there isn't really any genre that isn't saturated with the same shit. But I find it amusing that in the same paragraph people are contradicting themselves. They say they are tired of the same thing yet they can't stand hardcore influenced by metal which at first was "new" believe it or not. I said this in another thread, whenever a band sounds so bizarre or different it's labeled anti-hardcore like Flipper was.

Hardcore kids, new and old don't want some new band that they can't rationalize. Go listen to brackets.retards.brackets or some shit like that if you want something new that will not only annoy peoples parents but most people on here. Face it, most of the people bitching about nothing unique coming are the same ones who want to hear the same punk shit done over and over. People hate on bands like the Daughters, The Locust, etc,. saying WTF that can be hardcore, they dress like fags and make retarded sounds. Well, guess what people thought that about hardcore back in the 80's.

And I'm tired of hearing about this supposed Golden Age where unity was in everyones heart. There is just as much unity in hardcore as there was then, theres just more cliques now.

And there were hundreds of copy cat bands back in the day too, just didn't have youtube and the internet to put it in everyones face.

Jason the Magnificent - 3-22-2007 at 06:46 PM

I'd rather listen to the Cranberries than AF.

upyerbum - 3-22-2007 at 06:55 PM

"The problem is communication.....too much communication."
-Homer Simpson

xcadmusx - 3-22-2007 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason the Magnificent
I'd rather listen to the Cranberries than AF.

I'd rather listen to The Cranberries than 99.9% of any other music. And I'm very serious about that

DaveMoral - 3-22-2007 at 09:06 PM

Let's just face it... we're all at this weird point in our lives where hardcore sucks now. I'm not sure if it really has anything to do with the state of the scene today as much as it does that we're growing up and raising kids some of us and damn it all... we don't have time for that shit. If we were our age and raising kids 20 years ago in the hey day we'd probably have the same attitudes. It's too much goddamn work, and WAAAAY more work in the days when the internet wasn't the main form of communication for youth culture. Seriously... remember when you had to search for new bands or go to shows to hear a new band? Remember when you had to buy their demo tapes? That shit don't happen anymore... demos are on fuckin myspace and that shit is saturated with 20 shitty ass hardcore/punk bands to each one good one.

How many fuckin people get the heart and soul of it anyways? Even the ones that are "down?" How many of these kids have always been on the outside of the cliques and bullshit? You know... when I got into hardcore I was 17-18 years old and I'd always been on the outside of every clique and group in school and certainly wasn't high on the income bracket... I didn't even fit in with the band geeks and smart dorks. Hardcore/punk felt like home, and guess what? I was on the outside of damn near every clique in there too. Outcast amongst the outcast and all that shit. Hell, I'm still like that with my co-religionists. Being a tattooed white Shi'a Muslim ain't all that cool in the Muslim world.

Goddamn, these faggots these days DON'T express much individuality at all. Posers and the cats who are "down" all the fucking same. "Poser" today means people who don't have the right look and don't listen to the right bands amongst the bands that all sound like Hatebreed.

necrobutcher - 3-23-2007 at 01:14 AM

Just to add my two cents....

Hardcore grows and evolves, just like punk. Right now it's in a strange place. I see a lot of bands really doing something carrying on what it should be (in my eyes at least). It should be dancing, having a good time, tackling your friends, goofing off and enjoying being at a show since it's a release from the day to day bullshit.
I see a lot of that shit still going in some places. I look at Wisdom in Chains as really going into a place where it seems like it came from. The fact they are rocking Cock Sparrer covers and talking about punk makes me a happy man. Right now they are playing a lot of shit that feels like it's coming from a different place then where a lot of bands are at the moment.
Another thing I think of is a lot of the Baltimore bands. Good times and a lot of goofy shit. Every time I see any of those bands its a good show and usually ends up at a titty bar. That's what the whole thing is to me. Enjoying being a little off the beaten path but no matter what, you know what you're into and you enjoy it. Granted, there are a lot of idiots but that's the nature of anything. I love BDSM just like I love punk/hardcore/oi but I realize there are just as many pieces of trash as there are decent people.
Fuck, I remember when I was getting into it JNCO pants and those fat bead necklaces where the style. I was into more skinhead style at the time so I found that odd but still, there was some stuff I found that I loved the fuck out of. As long as there is still something there I enjoy and find fun in, I'm still into it.
A buddy of mine constantly bitches about younger kids in our area that hate punk/oi, only like hardcore and mosh like douchebags. I can see his point since it periodically gets on my nerves but when it comes down to it, that's what the younger fellas are like. They have fun and start bands, book shows and try their asses off. That's ok to me as well.
Is there a point? Fuck it. I guess it's all perspective in how you see things and what you grew up with. I remember talking about shows with a gentleman from a band that's been around a while and he told me something that sticks in my head. That being, "as long as you have fun at a show, keep going to shows."

Voodoobillyman - 3-23-2007 at 08:21 AM

I've actually been finding some decent hardcore punk rock type bands, just the way ma used to make em. You have to put forth an effort, if you care to, to find em, but there out there. The only band I can think of post 1995 that really got my attention in "the scene" is Blood for Blood of course, and with it looking like they are dead and buried who knows what the future holds for hardcore. I'd rather listen to honky tonk, psycho, swing, spook surf and even some non gay horror type punk bands. Oh and the car I got..........only sticker I put on it was BfB, couldn't resist. Every vehicle I have owned has had a BfB sticker on it, tradition ya know?

clevohardcore - 3-23-2007 at 01:29 PM

I want to read this thread but right now I don't have time.

Madonna rules. I miss the days when I could bitch about her being on MTV every hour.

stateofdisgrace - 3-23-2007 at 01:31 PM

My wife won tickets to see her at the Garden a few years back. We were in the
dance pit on the side of the stage. I just watched her in amazement!
One of the best live shows I've seen in quite sometime...
All praises due to Madonna!

moron - 3-23-2007 at 01:51 PM

I don't like to complain about how hardcore "used to be good" or how it sucks now because it'll just make me feel old, and I havent been into this stuff half as long as most of you. Lately... if the music moves me then I like it. That's about it. I try not to really care about labels.

Jason the Magnificent - 3-23-2007 at 02:06 PM

I think this thread has kind of spiraled into a hardcore ethics type debate which is almost impossible to quantify and depends greatly on your emotional state at any given time multiplied by your age subtracted by the square root of somthing else...

Your belief in the hardcore attitude or lifestyle could very well never diminish regardless of scene popularity or bastardization...I think my commentary was more of a musical one when I mentioned the going through the motions.

Discipline - 3-23-2007 at 02:09 PM

I find myself listening to less and less hardcore these days. I still listen to the bands I love, but I'm not actively searching out bands these days like I used to, and that's because I'm usually disappointed in what I find. Most of the new bands I'm checking out these days are punk and oi, or psychobilly, or straight up rock bands.

I definitely agree with Boycott on several points, but in particular the point about there being way too many labels out there. It seems like there are very few bands out there that aren't signed to a "label" of some kind. Of course, these labels usually end up being started by some dude with a few bucks that is friends with a couple of bands. These "labels" put out one or two releases and then fade away after six months when their friend's bands break up.

JawnDiablo - 3-23-2007 at 02:36 PM

i could care less
as a wise man once said
it all gets the gay eventually

tireironsaint - 3-23-2007 at 06:58 PM

It's been over for a long time now. That's not to say that the occasional band doesn't come along and play great HC, but it will NEVER be what it was. I don't mean that it will just never be as good for me personally as it used to be, I mean that there is no way that bands can possibly come along now and be as mind blowing and ground breaking as so many of them were back in the day. Not in this genre anyway. Seriously, who can ever come close to recreating the feeling that Bad Brains created with their early records and performances? Who can ever take things to the next level like some of the old Detroit bands like Negative Approach did? Who is creating a movement the way Minor Threat did? Who out there is going to inspire people in every crowd that hears them to change their life in some way or to finally feel like they might actually belong to something that is bigger than themselves? Nobody. Nobody is even trying to do anything like that anymore. All that most bands want to do now is get signed to the "cool label", sell a bunch of versions of one or two records and move on to the next trend. It's not what it was and it never CAN be that again.

DaveMoral - 3-23-2007 at 07:01 PM

I think the last band to be relevant along the lines that Minor Threat was is Vegan Reich... and I don't particularly care what your slant on VR's positions were or whatever... one thing they did that no one else did was single-handedly inspired TONS of kids to go vegan and/or vegetarian. That set the stage for pretty much the entire 90s.

Discipline - 3-23-2007 at 08:35 PM

Sorry dude, but Vegan Reich were assclowns.

upyerbum - 3-24-2007 at 09:05 AM

Hardcore is a state in the punk rock nation, and like any state there are some cities you just don't want to visit.

Lucabrasi - 3-24-2007 at 04:23 PM

Living in Vermont my whole life really makes it hard to be involved in the scene because there really isnt one here ( Well maybe in Burlington) so as for my stance on the current state of hardcore its hard for me to make a good judgment because im so far from the scene. I do agree on the whole jockish mentality alot of the newer people seem to have and I see a few people who were jocks in my highschool all into hardcore and it kinda pisses me off. As well as hardcore bands who just growl into the mic . Its something I will NEVER like.For me punk/hardcore has always been something to keep me going. I remember getting into punk back in 94 and just fell in love with it. There were acouple punks and skins in my area and we all hungout and would goto shows in Burlington and just fuck off. I didnt get into punk because it was a trend like I think alot of the kids do today. It was a way for me to be happy with being an outcast and be around others just like me. I wish things were still like that but things need to progress as does music and im completly unsure of what the next "thing" in hardcore has in store for us.

JawnDiablo - 3-24-2007 at 06:43 PM

The Bad Vibes were the best thing in the hardcore jungle to hit the streets in Philly since I was a kid.
Regardless of whatever, that's the real deal to me.
To me, that feels like hard core.
Stuff like that is few and far between.
The attitude, music and stuff.
I'm speaking only in thought particles at the moment
Its been a fuckin shitty afternoon.

DaveMoral - 3-25-2007 at 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Sorry dude, but Vegan Reich were assclowns.

Regardless of what you think of them, they had a purpose in a climate that was distinctly against people being vegan in the hardcore/punk scene which explains the uncompromising attitude and more importantly... there hasn't been a band as relevant as they were to making the kind of difference of attitudes and creating a movement within hardcore/punk along the same lines as Minor Threat. The Hardline EP is the reason that vegan straight edge exists to this day and has undeniably had as much an impact on the world of hardcore as did Minor Threat and straight edge.

joemaconmovies - 3-25-2007 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stateofdisgrace
I don't know if I'd go that far. There are some good bands out there making it memorable for others. I'd say the East Coast is dying. I mean, the Superbowl is a prime example. We have to rehash bands and get reunions going just get folks to pay attention. The new breed of young kids look at all this metaled up stuff and call it "hardcore."
No one pays attention to the roots of the music......

joemaconmovies - 3-25-2007 at 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tireironsaint
It's been over for a long time now. That's not to say that the occasional band doesn't come along and play great HC, but it will NEVER be what it was. I don't mean that it will just never be as good for me personally as it used to be, I mean that there is no way that bands can possibly come along now and be as mind blowing and ground breaking as so many of them were back in the day. Not in this genre anyway. Seriously, who can ever come close to recreating the feeling that Bad Brains created with their early records and performances? Who can ever take things to the next level like some of the old Detroit bands like Negative Approach did? Who is creating a movement the way Minor Threat did? Who out there is going to inspire people in every crowd that hears them to change their life in some way or to finally feel like they might actually belong to something that is bigger than themselves? Nobody. Nobody is even trying to do anything like that anymore. All that most bands want to do now is get signed to the "cool label", sell a bunch of versions of one or two records and move on to the next trend. It's not what it was and it never CAN be that again.

People said the same thing about punk and, at least in Boston, punk is very alive with great bands that aren't just trying to get signed. No...you can't really go back and do what Bad Brains or Minor Threat did but you can't live in the past and compare every band that comes along now to the past. If you keep on doing that then of course it's gonna die, cause you're helping it. Not every band is out there trying to get signed. If you never let go of the past, hardcore bands today will suffer for it. No one's looking for another Minor Threat cause it's been done. You just have to find bands that are still trying and support them.

tireironsaint - 3-25-2007 at 03:26 PM

That's kinda what I'm saying though, Joe. I'm not looking for someone to do what those bands did, they did it and noone else can. I'm just saying that nobody is ever gonna take things to those levels in their own way anymore. Everything is just retread or watered down bullshit following trends.

Discipline - 3-25-2007 at 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Sorry dude, but Vegan Reich were assclowns.

I'm not trying to start an argument here by any means, but I have to disagree. I don't think veganism has anywhere near the impact of Minor Threat and sXe. The vegan contingent has never been a big thing, and I don't think it can even be compared to sXe because, while both are lifestyle choices, they have nothing in common. One is choosing to abstain from intoxicants and substances that can alter ones mind and possibly destroy ones body. Choosing whether or not to be vegan doesn't have the same impact. Eating steak and eggs with a glass of milk while wearing a leather jacket isn't going to alter my mind or thinking process. Getting drunk and smoking dust on the other hand, will most definitely affect my mental facilities. One is choice of living clean,sober, and alert, the other is a choice to not use animal products. I don't see a huge similarity.

The reason I take issue with Vegan Reich is for their statements comparing people eating meat to those who gassed jews in nazi death camps. Statements like that don't prove devotion to one's cause, they show the complete ignorance of the person speaking it.

joemaconmovies - 3-25-2007 at 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tireironsaint
That's kinda what I'm saying though, Joe. I'm not looking for someone to do what those bands did, they did it and noone else can. I'm just saying that nobody is ever gonna take things to those levels in their own way anymore. Everything is just retread or watered down bullshit following trends.

i wasn't trying to pick you out of everyone to try and tear you a new one. you had the best general statement about it and so i used your comment to spring board into the point i was trying to make. when i said "you" i meant people in general, not you specifically. sorry if that came out the wrong way.

i still think it's possible to take things to those levels in their own way, just have to be patient though. i dunno. it's always hard to follow the originators of a certain genre. cause then a lot of the times you just end up being a copy cat and such. it's rough for bands that aren't following trends and are just doing it for the love of music. cause you also get lumped into the "doing it cause it's trendy now" category. it's a tricky situation.

joemaconmovies - 3-25-2007 at 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Sorry dude, but Vegan Reich were assclowns.

i'm gonna have to agree with you on this one. especially cause i know a ton of vegans.

JawnDiablo - 3-25-2007 at 10:36 PM

they have dust in canada?

Discipline - 3-25-2007 at 11:23 PM

We have all the same drugs that you do.

tireironsaint - 3-26-2007 at 02:10 AM

Not to try to jump in on this little back and forth between Dave and Discipline, but as a vegetarian SxE guy who has actually seen Vegan Reich before, I think I may have a couple cents worth of opinion on the matter.

At the time that Vegan Reich and their whole Hardline thing came about, I hafta admit that I was curious about it. I can't remember and don't care enough to research the dates to see whether or not I was a vegetarian at that time or not, but I had definitely been exposed to those ideas well before any of the Hardline bands came into existence. From within the scene, I think bands like Youth Of Today played a MUCH bigger role in spreading the word to SxE kids that vegetarianism and/or veganism was something to look at. I also read a lot of books that promoted it as a lifestyle choice that could positively impact the world, by means of lessening the environmental impact of things like commercial ranching and so on, but as far as me actually making the choice to stop eating meat, no bands played a role in that choice at all. If I had been deciding to change the way I provided myself with sustenance based solely on what some guy in a HC band said, I can't imagine I would still be doing it 15 years or so later. Much like how there is no way that if I had gotten sober because I wanted to be in the "cool crowd" of SxE kids I'm sure it would have lasted about as long as the average SxE kid does nowadays.

Anyway, on to Vegan Reich. I had their 7 inch as well as a few other bands that were on Hardline Records, notably Raid who I thought were the best of the bunch (probably because they took a huge influence from Integrity who was my favorite band at the time). I never was very impressed by the Vegan Reich record, but I was interested in finding out why they were so passionate about this particular cause. I was a bit disturbed by the fact that they felt the need to portray both themselves as well as the meat industry as being in line with Nazism and Fascism. How can you use that type of label and expect it to be both the positive and negative sides of your argument? That never made sense to me. Of course, it was weird enough that a SxE HC band was openly admitting to fascist leanings, but to then compare their enemies to the most well known proponents of that sort of political stance while adopting the word Reich as part of your name....What the fuck was that about?

So of course we had to go see 'em when they came through town. It's been a very long time, but as I recall they played to about ten or fifteen people and were openly defensive and somewhat paranoid the whole night. They were just as bad live as on record, if not worse and they had some weird hippy cult vibe going that really clinched the deal as far as I was concerned. All of them wore shorts and flip flops which just did NOT seem to click with the fascist mentality of their lyrics. Maybe I'm being a little silly throwing their fashion choices into this argument, but it added enough to the overall sense that these guys were complete nutjobs that I feel it has a place here. I really don't think a single person who was there that night was swayed to their cause and in fact, I'm pretty damn sure that the few of us who might have been sympathetic to vegetarian/vegan ideas becoming a part of SxE in general were completely turned off by their approach. I remember looking through all the records they had for sale and being relieved that they weren't carrying along anything I really wanted as I didn't feel comfortable giving them any more money than what they got from the cover charge I paid.

I guess my point is that even though I am a vegetarian and am what used to be called SxE (I really hate to group myself in with what that has become nowadays), plus I was fairly political and outspoken at one time about vegetarianism, I still feel that not only does eating or not eating meat have NOTHING to do with being SxE, the Hardline movement (especially Vegan Reich) did more harm than good for the goal of furthering veganism amongst the SxE scene.

ENDERA.x - 3-26-2007 at 02:25 AM

Quote:

Exactly.

ENDERA.x - 3-26-2007 at 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juandiablo
they have dust in canada?

loool

ENDERA.x - 3-26-2007 at 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
The book of hardcore was officially closed when Sheer Terror played its final shows.

I agree with Jason that most bands are all about a formula these days. I remember starting a thread a little while back about how everybody sounds the same these days.Back in the day most of the bands sounded different. If a song came on you instantly knew who it was, Black Flag, Bad Brains, Dead Kennedys, Negative Approach, The Meatmen, Agnostic Front, etc. All the bands tried to have their own sound. When the "youth crew" thing started I think that's when bands really started trying to sound the same. There were so many bands trying to sound just like YOT, Gorilla Biscuits, etc.

I didn't mind when a bit of metal was added into hardcore because bands like the Cro-Mags and Crumbsuckers played hardcore with a bit of metal influence. Now it's a lot of bands playing badly written metal with a couple of breakdowns and adding cookie monster vocals and calling it hardcore. It's not about the music or the scene anymore, it's about who has the most colour vinyl and showing off for cameras so you can post videos of you and your friends "hardcore dancing." When the fuck did people start calling it "hardcore dancing?" What happened to slam dancing, or evening moshing?

I have actually made it my goal in life that on those rare occasions I go to a show I'm going to kick the shit out of anybody that jumps on stage to grab the mic and scream "BREAKDOWN!!!" I saw that happen when some shitty band was opening for AF, and I've seen in clips online. That really pisses me off. All that these little fucks care about is daning for their friends to try and look cool. Don't even get me started on the faggy 2-man dance routines I've seen some idiots get into.

Kids ask why all the older fans bitch about hardcore today, it's because it has turned into a faggy little trend of the variety that the original bands were against. Instead of being an outcast and getting beat up for being a punk it's become the cool thing to be. The straight edge trend really pisses me off too. I've met and known some really cool people who are sXe, including some on this board, and they usually choose to be edge for personal reasons that are logical. The idea that people choose to be "edge" because it's the cool thing to do pisses me off to no end because it's not the point. It's supposed to be a personal choice made to better oneself, not because all the "cool" bands are sXe this week and have cool merch.

Last part of my rant, I always amused by some of the kids at shows I go to. They see me and I see their eyes go wide and they start whispering to each other, and it's always the same thing, "holy shit a skinhead!!! What should we do." I hate to break it to these little fucks straight from the latest Warped tour, but without skinheads punk/hardcore/oi/etc. wouldn't be what it is today.

And yes, very true!!

On the flipside, they see me and think, wtf is he doing here... I look like a fuckin "thug" meanwhile im the promoter of the show without me most shows wouldn't happen anymore, Toronto is dead.. all the older promoters left who brought the real bands no one is left really. Bands that are around break up after 2 years. What ever happened to dedication and the love. lol.

they just think you are a nazi they dont know about skins.

Ignorance is all. Its all little kids now, I remember when I was 15 everyone was 20+ at shows - now its the total opposite. All about tight pants, cool haircuts, dancing to show off, and its so obvious because they dont dance in time with the music at all, they two step all over the place when its nothing close to a 2 step timing, its like wtf.. it just irritates me to no end. Metalcore is the new 'hardcore'

fuck it..
im sick of boring ass chug chug breakdowns, i hardly dance anymore everything bores me. I'll nod my head here and there, but nothign gets my blood pumping - what the hell.

upyerbum - 3-26-2007 at 11:46 AM

FUCK HARDCORE, PLAY BAD ROCK AND ROLL AND NEVER MAKE A DIME, THATS PUNK AS FUCK!!

DaveMoral - 3-26-2007 at 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMoral

Quote:

Originally posted by Discipline
Sorry dude, but Vegan Reich were assclowns.

See, though... vegan straight edge was huge all through the 90's until around 98-99. Every other kid was vegan straight edge. Animal activism was bigger in that period than it has been since, it was a huge impact. Veganism has just as much a positive effect on a person's physical health as does abstinence from drugs and alcohol. But that's not the point, the point was that the introduction of putting veganism and drug free lifestyle together by Vegan Reich was the closest thing in hardcore/punk to what Minor Threat did with the idea of a drug free punk rock life. While vegan straight edge didn't ulitimately have as many adherents as does straight edge it was a huge contributor to the hardcore scene in its hey-day and while on a smaller scale is comparable and I don't really see any band achieving something similar to Minor Threat but Vegan Reich.

And to be fair, the reference to Auschwitz and Dachau was not to say that meat-eaters are the same as those who gassed Jews but rather the conditions of Nazi death camps and factory farms, laboratories and slaughterhouses have freightening similarities. In other words, how we treat animals tends to be how we treat human beings we deem expendable and/or less than human. Vegan Reich certainly wasn't the first to note those types of parallels either. Many prominent intellectuals have done so in human history. I mean, shit, urban life is so similar to chickens in battery cages is disturbing.

DaveMoral - 3-26-2007 at 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tireironsaint
Not to try to jump in on this little back and forth between Dave and Discipline, but as a vegetarian SxE guy who has actually seen Vegan Reich before, I think I may have a couple cents worth of opinion on the matter.

At the time that Vegan Reich and their whole Hardline thing came about, I hafta admit that I was curious about it. I can't remember and don't care enough to research the dates to see whether or not I was a vegetarian at that time or not, but I had definitely been exposed to those ideas well before any of the Hardline bands came into existence. From within the scene, I think bands like Youth Of Today played a MUCH bigger role in spreading the word to SxE kids that vegetarianism and/or veganism was something to look at. I also read a lot of books that promoted it as a lifestyle choice that could positively impact the world, by means of lessening the environmental impact of things like commercial ranching and so on, but as far as me actually making the choice to stop eating meat, no bands played a role in that choice at all. If I had been deciding to change the way I provided myself with sustenance based solely on what some guy in a HC band said, I can't imagine I would still be doing it 15 years or so later. Much like how there is no way that if I had gotten sober because I wanted to be in the "cool crowd" of SxE kids I'm sure it would have lasted about as long as the average SxE kid does nowadays.

Anyway, on to Vegan Reich. I had their 7 inch as well as a few other bands that were on Hardline Records, notably Raid who I thought were the best of the bunch (probably because they took a huge influence from Integrity who was my favorite band at the time). I never was very impressed by the Vegan Reich record, but I was interested in finding out why they were so passionate about this particular cause. I was a bit disturbed by the fact that they felt the need to portray both themselves as well as the meat industry as being in line with Nazism and Fascism. How can you use that type of label and expect it to be both the positive and negative sides of your argument? That never made sense to me. Of course, it was weird enough that a SxE HC band was openly admitting to fascist leanings, but to then compare their enemies to the most well known proponents of that sort of political stance while adopting the word Reich as part of your name....What the fuck was that about?

So of course we had to go see 'em when they came through town. It's been a very long time, but as I recall they played to about ten or fifteen people and were openly defensive and somewhat paranoid the whole night. They were just as bad live as on record, if not worse and they had some weird hippy cult vibe going that really clinched the deal as far as I was concerned. All of them wore shorts and flip flops which just did NOT seem to click with the fascist mentality of their lyrics. Maybe I'm being a little silly throwing their fashion choices into this argument, but it added enough to the overall sense that these guys were complete nutjobs that I feel it has a place here. I really don't think a single person who was there that night was swayed to their cause and in fact, I'm pretty damn sure that the few of us who might have been sympathetic to vegetarian/vegan ideas becoming a part of SxE in general were completely turned off by their approach. I remember looking through all the records they had for sale and being relieved that they weren't carrying along anything I really wanted as I didn't feel comfortable giving them any more money than what they got from the cover charge I paid.

I guess my point is that even though I am a vegetarian and am what used to be called SxE (I really hate to group myself in with what that has become nowadays), plus I was fairly political and outspoken at one time about vegetarianism, I still feel that not only does eating or not eating meat have NOTHING to do with being SxE, the Hardline movement (especially Vegan Reich) did more harm than good for the goal of furthering veganism amongst the SxE scene.

When did YOT first promote vegetarianism? Vegan Reich formed in '87, the Hardline EP came out in '89, then the Wrath of God came out in like '90 or '91. After that they stopped playing until '99 when the Jihad EP came out. Veganism wasn't foreign to punk, but it was pretty foreign to the hardcore world. Raid was probably the best, though I'd also vote for Statement being one of the better elements of the Hardline Records group. All those guys came from the anarcho scene with the exception of Raid, which was a Christian band before that if I remember correctly.

Honestly, the militant vegan stance struck a chord with ALOT of people. How do you explain the success of Earth Crisis? That band owes its existence to Vegan Reich and they know it. I understand why you may not feel that Vegan Reich had the impact that it did, but it's there. I don't meet many people that are vegan straight edge that don't love Vegan Reich and all the old Hardline bands, even if they disagree with the Hardline Movement on certain points. When I came into hardcore it was rare for people to NOT be vegan straight edge where I came from... and that's Indiana. All the kids doing bands in my tiny little town were vegan sxe, all the kids in Indianapolis were vegan sxe especially the ones doing bands and most of the bands that were really making a name for themselves at that time had at least one vegan sxe member in them.

Vegan Reich, Raid and the whole Hardline thing set the tone for vegan straight edge and all the bands that came out during that whole thing until Good Clean Fun came along. Bands were even cropping up and people were becoming vegan straight edge just to show that you didn't have to be like Hardliners. I don't know, maybe you ignored it because you didn't like the sounds and the people... but it was undeniably huge. Did Minor Threat or any of the youth crew bands ever get national news coverage? Earth Crisis and vegan straight edge did... in both positive and negative lights.

Saint, your description of the Vegan Reich show you went to sounds just like Sean Reich. He's a good friend of mine and my kung fu teacher. The dude is way laid back, I mean c'mon he grew on the beaches of SoCal. He's a surfer and always has been. But he's got a serious strain of anarcho-radicalism and in those days that's what he thought was important. But what do you expect from pissed of anarchist teenagers? What's so different between Vegan Reich and Conflict or Crass other than taking cues from the Cro-Mags really?

Also, the word "reich" is not the sole property of the Nazi regime. It's a German word that means "country" or "nation" and even "empire" and was used by the Weimar Republic right before the rise of Hilter. "Vegan Reich" would translate to "Vegan territory" or "Vegan country" etc. It doesn't have to be linked to fascism, and Vegan Reich certainly weren't fascists. That would require a far right form of government with a dictatorship and strong state and VR was always anarchist and the Hardline Movement was decentralized to a fault.

MikeCore - 3-26-2007 at 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBadVibes
i like real hardcore punk bands
the shit thats called hardcore is metal which is fine but it aint my thing at all
when hardcore stopped being punk, thats when i lost all interest

I'm right with ya. I'm only 31 years old and I didn't start listening to HC till early '89 so I caught the tail end of I guess what people call the 3rd wave of HC. To me HC is Minor Threat, YOT, BOLD, Judge, COS, SOIA(Early stuff), Turning Point, etc., and I still listen to all of those bands and I probably always will. Thrash has always been a part of HC but when you sound like Pantera or Slayer and try to call yourself a HC band it's just laughable to me. I'm not saying you can't but to each his own. I love metal but I don't call it HC. When I say Metal I mean bands like Napalm Death, Slayer, Deicide, Cannibal Corpse, etc.